Mould

Dunno about mould being good, would start over! Where are you? How is the weather?


Jeremy

Hi Della,

When was the last time it was cycled?
During storage when not cycling do you keep it refrigerated?
Is it covered while it's stored or fermenting?

Provided you've got a proven sourdough formula, you've followed it correctly, and you've maintain the fermentation parameters, it should be alright if you break the top surface by opening it to expose the fresh dough under it. Use the fresh dough and discard the outer moulded crust. Although? Mould can sometimes be a sign of poor lactobacillus activity.

If I make a spontaneous sourdough, I no longer use flour to culture the desirable microflora. I find the results more variable and requiring more cycles to achieve the desired microflora in the ascendency. I now use fruit skins for the initial culture period.

Jeremy, could well be right, and you may save yourself time to start from scratch. However, you could try it for three or five cycles using the fresh dough under the crust that's not mould infected. I'm willing to bet it'll be ok if you keep it refrigerated but cycle it regularly ensuring you keep to the schedule parameters.

 

at the prospect of making your own bread, there's a primeval resonance, a bit like hunting or growing your food.

I've been baking for almost 30 years but I still get excited when I see great bread. Keep us informed of your progress, it'd be nice to see the fruits of your labour.

Croc, moulds and other bacterial groups are also present in healthy sourdoughs but their population numbers are kept in check by Lactobacullus presence and the by-products it produces. If the sourdough is allowed to degenerate by careless hygiene or disregarding fermentation parameters, especially in the early stages other groups can move into the ascendency. Moulds are often the first to appear. However, moulds are also a sign of reduced Lactobacullus numbers and/or activity. Della's starter is still imature, especially if flour was the only original substrate.

I did mention that to begin a spontaneous sourdough I now use fruit as the original substrate to culture the desirable bacteria and yeasts and only after seven days do I introduce the liquid from this into a dough. I have had better results using this method comapred to using flour.

Lets see what happens over the next week.

Yesterday, I got the starter out of the fridge at work which has been idle for 10 weeks.
Of course, to the uninitiated it looked beyond redemption. It was slightly mouldy and had a surface aroma with a Camembert backnote. The other bakers not familiar with sourdough were horrified that I was going to use it to start a sourdough. When I broke open the crust to reveal a bright paste underneath their fears were somewhat allayed.

However, I weighed up the flour, water, and the clean starter from under the discoloured mouldy crust in the desired proportions and mixed it for the desired time. Allowed it to ferment 15hrs; the fermentation was strong, aromatic, and the sourdough exhibited all the characteristics it should. Today I used the whole sourdough to again start a larger sourdough that will be used next week to make a variety of bread.

The missed opportunity lies in the fact that I didn't photograph it in its idle mouldy state and then in its recycled state for you to see it.

Anyway, I'll photograph the bread later next week and post it here so you can see that  healthy sourdoughs are more robust than most imagine.

G'day Jeremy, "acidic sourdough"? Am I correct to assume you're referring to a sourdough that is over mature and has an acetate aroma? (Akin to 'butyl acetate' a bit like nail polish remover) Is this what you're referring to?

In the case I outlined in the previous post where the starter sat idle for 10 weeks the starter was actually a mature sourdough that was refrigerated immediately after the conclusion of the specified fermentation time. This means that it was at its peak in viable microbe numbers and the fermentation had not continued to form significant quantities of more exotic by-products such as acetates and lactylates. This was done precisely because it was to be stored for an extended period. In our case we were leaving for summer holidays and were not to return until the beginning of February. My reason for posting this example was to show Della that once a healthy sourdough is achieved it should continue to remain relatively viable even if moulds appear on the surface.

In the case of home bakers I'd suggest keep baking and refreshing your sourdoughs regularly. The more often the sourdough is cycled within tried and tested parameters the better its resilience. I would also use the refrigerator when the sourdough is outside the specified fermentation time. The reason for this is to retard the production of fermentation by-products. I've seen home bakers mystified by the variation they find in their bread from one day to the other in spite of insisting they did..."everything the same" and upon questioning it becomes clear their sourdough maturity has varied due to lack of consistent fermentation times. The fridge can mitigate extended fermentation times by simple temperature control.

However, John's advice to Ruth - see here - makes plenty of sense. For commercial bakers consistency is critical but for home bakers there plenty of acceptable latitude. Besides, its better for it to be an enjoyable experience and not a source of anxiety or pressure. Sometimes I just don't feel like baking, so I don't. It gives me a chance to grab some bread from one of the sourdough bakeries and try something new.

I hope I've answered your question without  being tedious.

 

Danubian,

I too can attest to your statement with success.  I too left my starter in the refrigerator, but it was for only 3 weeks.  When I came back, there was "hooch" on the top of the starter but no mold that I could detect.   I discarded the liquid and proceeded to feed my over starved starter.  After about 4 days of feeding, my starter was back to life.

I get hooch, a dark greyish liquidy layer, floating on top of my creamy starter after a while in the fridge. Have never worried me...

Distilled liquor like moonshine anything illegal : Websters I am not but it's a close one!


Jeremy

The old levain was stored in a bag, oozed an acidic hooch, when added to the final dough ingredients, everything looked promising, until I started to proof and it had a mottled appearance that looked like it was shredding!
I threw out all the nasty bits and have started a desem sent by Theresa!

Cheers!
Jeremy

They look so adorable.

50% rye and 50% bakers flour.

The rye is from Weston milling and is a very low extraction rye - endosperm only - I've contacted them for a report which will among other things have the ash content. The bakers flour will have .550 ash content.

The young apprentice who made those loaves was very proud of the results. Thanks for the compliments.

 

In terms of nomenclature,im not convinced that a bread fermented from a culture of fruit is technically a Sourdough. It is a fruit ferment,and these are distinct from a grain-leaven,particularly under organoleptic (that word sorry) or sensory analysis using corresponded or agreed criteria. I would also reckon that the yeast profile is different....apart from more complex analysis of the microbiology which is sure to be different..... This just demonstrates the variety of ferments possible when we get outside monoculture, and the need for some sort of taxonomy for these ferments. Must breads generated from a grape ferment,which i make often are very very different to my sourdoughs. As you say,these fruit ferments are ,or can be, exceptionally good breads,but i dont think they are sourdoughs, but as there is no taxonomy at all...or even trade standards...its just what i experience,and i think the sensory analysis bears out a clear difference.

There is a well documented tradition of using fruit yeasts(the blueberry was a favourite) to make sourdoughs in the American tradition, and apple ferments are well known in Europe,particularly with Rye. I reckon these yeasts morph after culturing with flour,and the rest of the microbiology comes more into line with what we know of SF sourdough for example. But this is in sharp distinction to the practices of classic French or Flemish  levain generation. But these are also idiosyncratic.

 Its not that any of these breads or methods are right or wrong,its just that we have lost the classifications of them in culinary culture, and it is enriching to restore them, and to be using them again.But its good to name them accurately...its culturally enriching. I think its so interesting that you have evolved this process,and its what makes one treasure a bakers true skill..."lets go to danubians bakery and get that rye he makes" 

John,

Do you think sourdough should have a Rheinheitsgebot (purity code or law?) and who would administer those rules?

 

Jeremy

Jeremy, I'm not too keen on 'administers' of anything, for good reasons, but I can see the need to have clear definitions. In the past the Trade Guilds were the custodians of these matters. 

What about when a sacc cerevisiae inoculated dough is aged and develops ripeness and "twang" indicating acidity and microflora?. I agree with you really, but perhaps there is a line as the guilds contended,and its to do with how the culture is generated?...from grain or fruit or wort...or monoculture. Seems like everything outside a monoculture is sourdough?...even a genuine sourdough which has Sacc C added?

I guess here's an example of the need for a specific nomenclature for sourdough baking. Bakers in Australia have a nomenclature for many of their processes, etc. but not a specific nomenclature for the sourdough process, and to the extent that it exists, it's 'confused' as it's a hybrid of American and European, which have differences.

When you use the term "starter" you are referring to the acidified dough that's added to the final bread dough. This usage as far as I can tell is American. However, when I use the term "starter" I'm referring to the mature acidified dough used to inoculate a new batch of acidified dough that will be added to the final bread dough. As far as I can tell this usage is European.

To recapitulate;

American usage;

·                  starter = acidified dough added to the final bread dough (sourdough)

 

European usage;

·                  starter = mature sourdough used to inoculate a new batch of flour and water to become the acidified dough (sourdough)added to the final bread dough.

 

Doughman, this is not a criticism of your usage, only a clarification so we can both understand each other.

To answer your question, the first 50% rye - the sourdough ferments for approx. 6-8 hours (relatively short) at 24'C. This takes advantage of early yeast growth and C02 production. The level of addition is calculated on the basis of the total flour weight at 30%. The final bread dough has a relatively short DTO (Dough to Oven Time) - from the time the dough finishes mixing until it enters the oven - there's an example of bakers nomenclature. The bulk fermentation is approx. 2 1/2 - 3 hours at a relatively cool temp -approx 26'C - and final proof approx. 2 1/2 to 3 hours.

The second is entirely different. 20% Rye - the sourdough ferments for approx. 15 - 18hrs at 22'C. This takes advantage of Lactobacillus growth and acid production, pH and TA. The final dough has a relatively long DTO. Bulk fermentation for approx. 4 -5 hours at approx. 24'C and the final proof approx. 18hours (overnight in refrigerated environment for approx. 15 hours) and a final 3 hours at approx. 24'C.

I agree there needs to be a classification of every bread in relation to the entire constellation of the bread kingdom.

In my opinion the moment Saccharomyces cerevisiae is added to a sourdough its no longer sourdough, period! 

I must caveat this statement with the admission that Sacc c is naturally present in healthy sourdoughs but in very small quantities They never assert themselves because they are kept in check by the natural tendency for sourdoughs to behave much like a relatively closed ecosystem. This is my main objection to labeling bread "yeast free" or "bakers yeast free", at best it's misleading, besides it just doesn't exist! 

Saccharomyces cerevisiae (Sacc c) when added to a sourdough compete with Lactobacillus for maltose, and result is that Sacc c become the dominant microflora. Lactics are no longer able to influence the characteristics of the sourdough because their number decline. The endemic yeasts of healthy sourdoughs do not compete for maltose, they metabolise other simple sugars that Lactics do not. Of course there is some overlap but by and large it's nimiscule. Check Bergies Manual; you'll be able to identify which sugars are metabolised by which species of lactics and yeasts.

Hey this is gonna get complex,but ive never had anyone to take this journey,so thanks mate.....Theres a whole question about yeasts,because like viruses they are very dynamic organisms. Looking at yeasts and classifying them from a reductionist science`s  view would lead us to believe that they are all morphologically quite distinct and identifiable. Everything neatly in its pigeon hole....which we now know its not...the pigeon flies.

Yep i agree putting sacc C in a sourdough renders it a not-sourdough. But youre saying that Sacc C exists in small quantities in a sourdough anyway...so is this a contradiction? And if this same Sacc C is endemic to the s/d,then why cant it compete with the bacteria and overcome them as the added Sacc C does?, given an "ecological" opportunity. (see blog on "the real thing").

 It depends which Sacc C we are discussing.

 Some experts like Ed Wood, an American microbiologist and sourdough maker (hes the guy who famously recreated Pharonic Egyptian bread for National Geographic) dont think that the yeast to which you refer as being Sacc C in sourdoughs , is actually Sacc C. He reckons its  similar only,and that one couldnt actually be certain of that without an electron mic....and then not even....the only hope would be as you say classifying according to which carbs they metabolise, but this is demonstrably variable too..like viruses, yeasts are quantum critters....they morph so easily,and combine/mutate rapidly to suit the terroir.

But the Sacc C that bakers put in bread,isnt really the same Sacc C as this endemic one is it?

Apart from the GMO ones in UK,at very least, bakers Sacc C is seriously line bred and highly opportunistic/responsive, much like a thoroughbred horse compared to a draught horse...serious monoculture. 

Sacc C naturally exists as a polyculture of  families..which is a Barm in Gaelic-English, and desired strains are taken out and replicated in varying contexts until the required traits are found,and then that strain alone is used.

 So the term "bakers yeast" is valid in so much as it defines a type of Sacc C. We used to use the term "brewers yeast" as a distinction to this.But we also know they were both Sacc C.

 Just look at the difference between active dried yeast and the cake yeast which is available even.Those highly active dried yeasts actually die off quickly if you keep culturing them,or cycling the dough. Compressed yeast Sacc C lasts longer,but it dies off too, not from the threat of acidity but because they are hot-house flowers with no real virility.They require lots of refined carbs (read white sugar) to regenerate them,flour isnt enough,especially wholemeal. 

 Again,these Sacc C are really different to the Sacc C which one gets from a wort, of course full of maltose, which are incredibly robust and can be recycled from dough to dough and still be strong in action....as we know from documented historical Australian bakery practice.

I think the active dried yeast may be selected/bred to utilise sucrose/glucose more than maltose? Kind of a "diabetic" yeast, which would also explain its lack of vigour.

So then,this is a bigger picture..which leads to the question of process...How was the yeast made? The whole fermentation process is a myriad, and clearly outstrips the tools we are trying to explain it with.Its not that our classifying/taxonomy is wrong,its just incomplete, and leaves out the possibilities of the fundamental of all realities...change. Ed sells various cultures hes collected from around the world,and he documents how different the yeasts are from various locations even. So our actual scientific taxonomy needs rewriting in terms of observable reality rather than intellectual convenience.We are still classifying a la Pasteur!

That means its prob better to use the term "bakers yeast" because it IS  a special type of Sacc C.  I agree its silly to call sourdough "yeast-free"....but consumers understand what this means, and want it. 

Im part of the industry yep, and i wasnt saying the "Industry" is braindead,but the "trade" i said shows signs of it....bread missed out on the niches wine and cheese have established through good marketing and vision, because of the torpor of the bread trade....that is the purveyors of bread, who seem content with the LCD. Agreed, this is changing, but only as a reaction to what was initiated outside the "trade". The big challenge for the trade,is to not fake it, and deliver the goods for the public.

I'd have to agree with you that the current taxonomy is inadequate to deal with the 'exceptions' as there seems to be enough of them to warrant a new 'rule' so to speak. Of course, strains of Sacc c which are called 'bakers yeast' bred by industrial plants exhibit a range of differences and characteristics compared to the endemic Sacc c of sourdoughs, and yes, they are continously monitored at the plant for consistent gassing power.



Not so, as far as I'm aware. These strains of Sacc c do metabolise sucrose, glucose and most importantly maltose. There isn't sufficient glucose or sucrose in a conventional bread dough to sustain gassing power into the initial baking stage without 'bakers yeast' also motabolising maltose. In fact enhanced amylase or diastatic activity is one of the important features of the rapid dough system and if the flour is deficient in alpha amylase - which Australian flours by and large tend to be - it's crittical to provide this additional diastatic activity as is common practice in rapid dough systems. But why? precisely because bakers yeast metabolises maltose, and in fact at the point where sucrose is exhausted it metaboiises maltose exclusively, it changes it's metabolic pathway.
 
However, to carry the point further, the industrial yeast plants I've visited, active dry bakers yeast is produced from the same batch as compressed bakers yeast although they are packaged dry in vaccum packs. They are indentical to compressed yeast. But you are correct to say there are some specific strains which have specialist applications such as frozen doughs, but they are in the main only a small specialised batch seperate from the common bakers yeast which is in compressed or dry form.    

To reply to your contention that endemic Sacc c do not compete with Lactics on the basis that their presence but lack of dominance shows they do not metabolise maltose fails to take into consideration their small population in sourdoughs. As far as I understand the major reason for this is that they never reach crittical mass in a sourdough so pose no threat.

So where to from here; you've made some fair points which in my earlier post I opted not to enter into on the basis that its a winding endless rabbit hole but to come to the issue of when is a sour